Trinity

This post is one of several from a person claiming " I am genuinely interested in finding the truth" concerning the Bible, religion and the clergy.  This person now belongs to a "Home Church" group that does not recognize the legitimacy of a formal clergy and many other historical/traditional Church teachings.  The person also claims to having been exposed to a great number of views including Roman Catholicism, Lutheran, and others. The strongest influence however, seems to be from  Watchtower .  You will see  specific questions regarding what can be seen as the single most important position of theology in the Christian Church of all times. Teacher's moments about passages are seen in parenthesis.  I am using the King James Version  in addressing these questions.  The texts offered come in part from the New World Translation of the scriptures as far as can be determined.  My answers are in 12 pt. brown text.

Subject: Scriptures Used to Disprove Trinity...

From: "D. A."
To: "Uhlig, Karl" <gcmi@gcmi.net>

Here are the Scriptures used to disprove the Trinity. The reasons/reasoning is in parenthesis. Do not be offended if the reasonings sound aggressive toward disproving the Trinity as that is how it was presented to me. This is long so please take as much time as you need as it would be beneficial to receive as comprehensive an apologetic (rebuttal) as possible. Thanks!



Genesis 1:26 - "Let US make man in OUR image"
(Shows more than one person.  Is the Almighty talking to himself?)

Here we must first address the word "uni-plural" which simply means three things that function, or can be seen as, one. It is the bottom line of how God (Godhead /Deity) should be understood. For example, an egg can be seen as one unit composed of three parts. Each is distinct in function, and can be viewed separately (shell, yoke, albumin). When intact, only the shell is evident to the naked eye. However, under a strong light, such as in the candling process which searches for blood spots within the egg, the inner portions of the egg also become visible, but are not so clearly defined as the shell to the viewer's eyes. Now if we open that egg, the other two portions (components) become clearly visible. Hence we can understand how each of the three parts are distinct in function, and recognition; yet remain integral with the egg as a whole.  A similar illustration would be that of water, water vapor (steam, mist etc. Hebrew word "Rausch") and ice.  All three are forms of or the original.

Now let us determine exactly who is talking to whom in the scripture being examined:

Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus taught that the pre-eminent being in the Godhead is the Father. God ( the Godhead/Deity) has a specific name known as YHWH (the tetragrammaton) usually interpreted as Yahweh. It was written first (incorrectly) as Jehovah by the American Standard Version translators. The reason was that "J" sounds like "Y"  in Hebrew.  The tetragrammaton "YHWH" is a standard then.  And so, we have written forms such as Yahweh Adonai (Lord God- Adonai being Lord) and Elohim.   The later will be addressed in more detail as we go further into our study.  The third member of the Godhead is The Holy Spirit.  Jesus referred to this member of the Trinity as the "Comforter" and "He".

That being the case, we have God (YHWH) speaking either to the other members of the Godhead, or the members of the heavenly court. Both views have been forwarded in Bible footnotes and in commentaries to the scriptures.

Now let us address other earlier scripture that also includes the announcing of the Holy Spirit in a sense that personalizes the him.  You see, a mere "active force" (as recorded in the NWT) lessens remarkably, the power and majesty of the God.  Space here does not allow the citing of the entirety of scriptural references concerning just the creation aspect of how God worked in "The Creation."

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

In essence then, here in Genesis, we catch the first glimpse of a uni-plural God (Godhead, Theocratic Trinity, deity), supported later, by the New Testament accounts and writers.



Judges 13:9-11 - "And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her. And the woman made haste, and ran, and told her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the [other] day. And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am."
AND
John 9:1, 7-9 - "And as he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth... When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and anointed his eyes with the clay, and said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam (which is by interpretation, Sent). He went away therefore, and washed, and came seeing. The neighbors therefore, and they that saw him aforetime, that he was a beggar, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? Others said, It is he: others said, No, but he is like him. He [the beggar] said, I am.

Why these passages are introduced I can't understand, other than to say they are here to confuse if possible, the unwary or un-knowledgeable. The first passage clearly shows a context of dealing with an angel, who upon being questioned, admits it is he (the angel who had appeared as a man) who had appeared. He does this by saying "I am."

Once again, in the second passage, we simply deal with a man who was healed and identified himself as the one who had been healed, by say "I am." This is not the "I Am " also written YHWH.



(John 8:58 is said to be another strong proof that Christ is Jehovah, for the name Jehovah is said by Trinitarians to mean "I Am" "the Self-Existing One" and Jesus in that verse says, "Before Abraham was I am.' Jesus, however, does not apply "l am" to himself as a title; he uses the words as the subject and verb of an ordinary sentence, meaning simply that from before Abraham's time until the present he had had a continuous existence. To make "I am" a title in this sentence is grammatically absurd.)

First let me point out that the verses just discounted above contain the words "I am." You can see here why a point of confusion was mentioned! The question then remains, "Is this what the questioner was taught by someone else? Let's delve a bit deeper.

Here we could claim some semantical gymnastics. The translators have given us this passage in a number of versions, but the "I am" is always included, meaning that this is what Jesus spoke. Now why would he do that? He is making a very strong uni-plural declaration! See the passage below and it should be very clear to anyone.

John 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

3056 logov logos log'-os = "Word"
3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
++++
This term was familiar to the Jews and in their writings long before a Greek philosopher named Heraclitus used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1. See Gill on "Joh 1:1".  (From the Online Bible and Strong's" Exhaustive Concordance)

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. *

*This passage, virtually intact, also appears in the NWT ( Watchtower's New World Translation) showing a remarkable argument against their own theology of making Jesus a separate God!

The message is clear, Jesus is a deified person in the Godhead (Trinity).
An earthly example here would be the human (biological/genetic)  one-ness in fathers and sons.



Matthew 7:21 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven."
(Jesus is stating that his Father is in heaven... while Jesus was on earth. Two people; two different locations)

What is the problem here? Such a condition is readily evident with families, church members etc. and as such is meaningless in attempting to disavow the Godhead as Triune. We can also say  that God (Godhead/ Trinity) is a family. And for those who would question the validity, asking "Where is the female portion?"   I  refer them to the church which is also known as the "Bride of Christ." (Rev. 21:9) families re not always together in the same place at the same time are they?



Matthew 20:23 - "He saith unto them, My cup indeed ye shall drink: but to sit on my right hand, and on [my] left hand, is not mine to give; but [it is for them] for whom it hath been prepared of my Father."
(Jesus could not reward the disciples, only the Almighty could provide the rewards of status in heaven. Once again, Jesus shows His inferiority and subordinance to the Eternal Father.)

First of all, please note how differently the cited passage reads when compared with the KJV !!!

Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:* but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

Jesus, was the perfectly obedient son, who had divested himself of his heavenly glory, when he became a totally human being. Many people forget this, or choose to overlook it, for whatever reason(s) they end up with. So it is not at all out of context or unusual that he should clarify what had been predestined. To say that Jesus is inferior is a challenge to common sense and sound theology.
* You can also note that by eliminating any reference to baptism, the Holy Spirit as a person is also eliminated, as is any reference to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which was so important in the early church.
It would be good for the reader to check the cross references to this passage, as it is of major importance.   See below for a start.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Romans 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.



Matthew 26:39 - "And he [Jesus] went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt."
(Jesus shows that he is doing someone else's will; not his own. If he and the Father were the same person, Jesus would be doing his own will.)

Think it through a bit. It was Jesus' will to be obedient. So how can one say he did something in opposition to himself?  True, the human part of Jesus would have preferred something different, but in the end of the prayer, he chose to obey his Father's will. Once again, we see how the Trinity functions so perfectly. And we also see how we as Christians are to follow his example.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This is the simple answer to this commentary. As a human man named Jesus, the Son of the Trinity was by example, the perfect human son, not the glorified King of Kings.



Mark 13:32 - "But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father [only]."
(Not even Jesus knew what the Father knew. Two separate minds and memories. If there were anyway at all that Jesus and the Father were the same person - or two people with one shared spirit body or however trinitarians look at it - Jesus would know everything that the Father knows.)

Jesus, while living upon he earth, was limited in knowledge as are all human beings. This is a part of the divine plan. To further understand this concept see what the Apostle Paul says:

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. {darkly: Gr. in a riddle}



Luke 18:18, 19 - "And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, [even] God."
(Here Jesus states that only the Father is good... that he himself is not. If Jesus and the Father were one and the same, then it would have been blaspheme for Jesus to state that he himself was not good!)

Jesus is making a most important admonition here. We must never esteem ourselves as good as or superior to anyone else. Humans are frail, and have as a part of their fallen nature, the same sinful desire as did Lucifer, the fallen angel. It must also be remembered that just as Jesus taught with many parables, so too, his living examples denoted tremendous wisdom and humility. Hence, only God, is taught to be supreme. And , man is always to be humble and obedient to the will and law of God.



Luke 23:46 - "And Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said this, he gave up the ghost [Gk. = ruach: breath of life]."
(Jesus commends his life's breath to God. If he was God the Father, why would he commend his spirit to himself?)

Here is an act of perfect authoritative submission, just as we are to do when we surrender our lives to Christ, in becoming Christians. Our will and even our life, is given over to God, through Christ Jesus, the mediator between the Father and men. See these relevant passages:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. {covenant: or, testament}

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. {covenant: or, testament}



John 1:18 - "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]."
(No one has seen God, but a lot of people saw Jesus; before his resurrection, after his resurrection AND after his ascending to the Father. Paul saw Jesus in His glory as a light brighter than the sun. If they try to say that Jesus is the Almighty, then they have to say that Jesus lied... not likely!)

First of all we should make a point of addressing the commentary concerning lies.  Satan, in tempting Eve, used the exact same method:
Genesis 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.   Here is what God had commanded
Genesis 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Here is the accusation to the innocent
This in effect, called God a liar didn't it?   Now let's go farther.

"(AND after his ascending to the Father.) "

The only Bible accounts are dual. That is, the event surrounding Paul on his way to Damascus, and the rendering of John in Rev. 1:13-15. However, neither of these accounts grant a notice that Christ Jesus was recognized as he had been on earth, but rather, he is seen in a glorified form. Note also referrals to him (Jesus) as being "the light of the world."



John 5:26 - "For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself"
(Apparent from this scripture, Jesus did not have "life in himself" or immortality. If Jesus was God, then he would also have been immortal from the beginning as the Father who "hath life in himself")

This passage should have been read more carefully, they do have the same attributes.

"even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself"   (pasted from the later part of the sentence)

Once again we see the pre-eminence of Jesus, and how the power of God works within the Trinity.
We also see how in their egotistical state, men make some interesting mistakes.



John 8:17, 18 - "Yea and in your law it is written, that the witness of two men is true. I am he that beareth witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me."
(Two witnesses - Jesus and the Father. If Jesus and the Almighty were one person, then it would be only one witness.)

Once again, a more careful reading would have clarified. The prophets had long predicted the birth of the Messiah. How? Read it again. Jesus says he is bearing witness to himself and to the Father. That is the first part of the passage. The second part is that the Father would bear witness of a son (Moshiack, Messiah) who would come. The Jews still look for a human to appear who will have made himself perfect and could in turn become the Messiah. This has a rather recent history in what the Hasidic community located in Monroe, NY attempted to bring forth in claiming that the Rebbe (Rabbi) Schneerson) could be proclaimed as the Moshiack. However, before the announcement could be completed, the Rebbe succumbed to death.
Another aspect to be considered would be the Greek word "Logos" which i have already addressed.



John 14:28 - "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I."
(Jesus differentiates between himself and the Father by saying that the Father is GREATER than he is.)

Jesus always differentiated between himself and his Father. He did likewise concerning the Holy Spirit, after all, they each have  a personal identity and function in differing capacities.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

In these passages, one can again see the relationship of the three person of the Godhead, their individuality, and perfect harmony within the Godhead (Deity) ((Trinity))


John 17:3 - "And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ."
(That they should know TWO people... God and the one God SENT.)

Once again, we see how it is attempted to show that there is a separation rather than unity. This is most important to those people who would attempt to discredit the theology of the Trinity. They miss is the word "and" which is a word of unity rather than separation. Also not to be dismissed is the title Jesus Christ. Jesus clearly taught that he acted upon what his Father willed for him to do. He further taught that after he (the Christ) left the earth, we are to pray to the Father, and the he (Jesus) would do the work, or that the Holy spirit would perform tasks upon his (Jesus' will). No amount of trying to disrupt the functioning of God (Godhead, Trinity, Tri unity) will hold up under scriptural scrutiny. This has been also proved out in that The Watchtower has published its own version of the Bible, in a further attempt to prove their man made doctrine.



John 17:20-22 - "Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us...And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we [are] one..."
(If Jesus prays that all his followers are one just like he and the Father are one - trinitarians use this idea of oneness to prove the trinity - does that mean it becomes more than a "trinity" - threesome?)

This is a rather odd question and entirely inappropriate. Tri means three does it not? How the can there be more than three in a trinity or for that matter, Tri Unity?  How can here be a trinity of heavenly proportion? We can see God, (in three persons), the pre-existing heavenly host, and those who will become a part of the "New Heaven and Earth" as the third portion. But to say "Threesome" boggles the mind does it not?



1 Corinthians 8:6 - "yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him."
(One God only and one Lord Jesus only = two persons only!)

Once again we see semantical high jinx. This is a very poor attempt to extricate the Holy Spirit from the Godhead when scripture continually has shown otherwise. There is only one (triune) God, and within that Deity, there is no need for anyone but the one Jesus Christ, one Father and one Holy Spirit. Paul is addressing that aspect alone, in the face of countering the multi gods principle of pagan religions, which thrived in the city of Corinth.



1 Corinthians 11:3 - "...the head of Christ is God."
(God is OVER/ABOVE/GREATER THAN Christ.)

2776 kefalh kephale kef-al-ay' from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing); TDNT-3:673,429; n f
AV-head 76; 76

1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.
2) metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent
2a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife
2b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church
2c) of things: the corner stone

Here we have a phrase and word usage of relativity. Perhaps it would be good to consider this a bit. The head of a family is the husband. If he dies the family also dies - we use the term survivors for the widow and any children or other family members don't we. Why? Well, the Father is supreme in leadership, or at least he is supposed to be. Christ is know as the Bridegroom, the head of the church. Do you see the correlation? One again, we must also be reminded of subservience and obedience. For instance -

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But it is important for you to keep this fact in mind, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.

I would also have you consider the following question. Why is it so important for the secular world to cause separations and estrangement's in families, always emphasizing "rights" without responsibilities and placing the god of psychology ahead of Christianity and certain other religions? Think about it!



1 Corinthians 15:15 - "Yea, we are found false witnesses of God; because we witnessed of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead are not raised."
(God raised Christ from the dead... Christ died; God the Father cannot die because He has life in Himself... i.e. the Father is immortal and cannot die. Galatians 1:1 and Hebrews 13:20 also show that God - who does not die - raised Jesus up - who did die. Now Jesus dies no more because the Father GAVE him life within himself or immortality which Jesus did NOT have before.)

Once again we have a conceptual situation. The human Jesus was able to die, for specific purposes. He became the living sacrifice, in place of the paschal lamb for instance.

1 Peter 1:19 But through holy blood, like that of a clean and unmarked lamb, even the blood of Christ:

Revelation 5:6 And I saw in the middle of the high seat and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the rulers, a Lamb in his place, which seemed as if it had been put to death, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

We have already shown that Jesus, who lived with his father in heaven, divested himself of that position in order to take upon himself a totally human form. This made possible, the future resurrection of humans at God appointed times.



1 Corinthians 15:24 - "Then [cometh] the end, when he [Jesus] shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he [Jesus] shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power."
(Jesus delivers up the Kingdom to the Father... not to himself)

Jesus was never meant to be a political power here on earth. Rather, his power was to be established upon the completion of the work assigned to him by his Father, so that we could also learn perfect obedience. It is this perfect obedience that the world hates and fights against, along with those spiritual powers and principalities in high places mentioned in:

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. KJV

Other important scriptures to keep in mind are:

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came to them and said, All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.



Colossians 1:15 - "[Jesus] who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation..."
(First, Jesus is the "image" of the Father - like Adam was created in God's image. That being created in God's image did not make Adam any part of a trinity of Gods. Also, this scripture states that Jesus was the First born on all creation which shows that Jesus had a beginning while the Father has no beginning. See also Proverbs 8:22-31 and Revelations 3:14 and Hebrews 1:5 which show that Jesus had a beginning... Jesus was created/begotten by the Father.)

First allow me to "nit pick" for a moment.  The book's title is Revelation, not the plural!

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

The scripture above shows clearly the syntax of the "image" situation. There are many types of images, so one must take care in how they apply interpretations of a text. Also, I note the comment "trinity of Gods."  No mature theology of Christendom ever uses the word "Trinity" as plural! Now let us address the "first born" comments and the scriptures provided.

Proverbs 8 22-31

22 The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past.
23 From eternal days I was given my place, from the birth of time, before the earth was.
24 When there was no deep I was given birth, when there were no fountains flowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were put in their places, before the hills was my birth:
26 When he had not made the earth or the fields or the dust of the world.
27 When he made ready the heavens I was there: when he put an arch over the face of the deep:
28 When he made strong the skies overhead: when the fountains of the deep were fixed:
29 When he put a limit to the sea, so that the waters might not go against his word: when he put in position the bases of the earth:
30 Then I was by his side, as a master workman: and I was his delight from day to day, playing before him at all times;
31 Playing in his earth; and my delight was with the sons of men.

Simply put, this points to the place of pre-eminence Jesus had before his human conception.

Actually, verse 31 should not be included here, for the text (beginning with verse 31) and what follows would be in the time period after Adam and Ever were created you see. And that preceded the time of Jesus having become "begotten" by Mary, through the power of the Holy Ghost (Spirit).

Heb. 1:5

To which of the angels did God say at any time, You are my Son, this day I have given you being? or, I will be his Father, and he will be my Son?

Once again, we see the differentiation between Jesus and any angel; and for that matter, any human who would claim to be the Messiah (Moshiack), Other than that, why even bother to use this passage to attempt to discount the Deity of Jesus or the Trinity.

Rev 3:14

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

This then is another futile attempt defeat the idea of the trinity by separating YHWH, misnamed JEHOVAH, from the other members of the tri unity (uniplural) Godhead. I should also mention the word Elohim here. We are looking at the Hebrew word as it is use in the very first passage of the Bible.

0430 Myhla 'elohiym el-o-heem'  plural of 0433; TWOT-93c; n m p

AV-God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2, angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1; 2606

1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods

2) (plural intensive-singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God

2e) God

A proper understanding of the scriptures, as has already been mentioned, shows that all three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were before the creation, and present during each phase of the creative days. We must also recall that Jesus is known as the first and the last - that is the Alpha and the Omega. He is also known as the carpenter, carpenters son, son of God, son of man and a host of other titles.



1 Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, [himself] man, Christ Jesus"
(For there is ONE God ONLY who is the Father, and then there is also a mediator who is Jesus. This shows two individuals, not one.)

Now we must read very carefully. Do you see that word also? It is the key to understanding the verse. I'll break it down for you by paraphrase, without changing the context. "For there is one God - also there is one mediator between God and men, who was as a man himself, namely Jesus Christ. There is no mention of "Father" in the verse at all. In fact lets look at both the Bible in Basic English & KJV to show that the passages, as they have been offered as proof texts, are not necessarily from the KJV, RSV, NIV, or NAS. Perhaps then it is the New World Translation (Watchtower's)

Here is how the KJV and BBE editions offer 1 Tim. 2,5

5 For there is one God and one peacemaker between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, BBE
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; KJV

6 Who gave himself as an offering for all; witness of which was to be given at the right time; BBE
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. KJV

Do you also see how verse 6 clarifies a thing or two?

So far as the statement of "two individuals" goes, there is no problem. We don't need more than one mediator, so the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, nor does he need to be.



James 1:13 - "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man"
(God cannot be tempted... Jesus WAS tempted by the adversary in Matt. 4:1-11.)

I'm so glad this has found its way here. Go back to the entire text, and note how the man Jesus, who had just been baptized for the remission of sins by his cousin John the Baptist, proved himself totally human, because he was tempted; and how through his perfect knowledge of scripture, refuted every single attempt to beguile him, by quoting what the scriptures said. Was this human knowledge or Godly knowledge? Shall we also keep in mind that the Holy Spirit had come down upon him in the form of a dove? Think about who sent the Holy Spirit? And remember what the voice from heaven said!! This happens to be one of the numerous and beautiful accounts of how perfectly the Trinity ( God Godhead Deity) functions.



1 John 4:15 - "Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God."
(So if I confess that Jesus is the Son, does that make me part of the trinity? I don't think so!)

None of us will ever become a part of the trinity in the way you have made your statement. But it does make a person a part of the Church, that is, the True church, which is composed of people who accept Jesus as their personal Savior. See the scripture below.

John 1:12 12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}



In regards to John 1:1 which states that the Logos was "God," the actual translation of that verse is that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE GOD [greek: Ho Theos],and the Word was a god [theos]. The word theos without the article HO (meaning THE) is used several times for other that the Almighty and Eternal God. See the following verses:

First of all, this passage is adulterated. It is found in only the New World Translation of the Bible. That translation is strictly an attempt by the Watchtower folks to refute the Trinity. In order to do so, they insert the word "a" into the text. Lets examine that text a bit more.

1  In <1722> the beginning <746> was <2258> (5713) the Word <3056>, and <2532> the Word <3056>  was <2258> (5713) with <4314> God <2316>, and <2532> the Word <3056> was <2258> (5713) God <2316>.

I have included with the KJV text with Strong's Numbers, so we can go further to examine your exegesis concerning the words "logos" and "theos."

3056 logov logos log'-os from 3004; TDNT-4:69,505; n m

AV-word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not tr 2, misc 32; 330
1) of speech
1a) a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
1b) what someone has said
1b1) a word
1b2) the sayings of God
1b3) decree, mandate or order
1b4) of the moral precepts given by God
1b5) Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
1b6) what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim
1c) discourse
1c1) the act of speaking, speech
1c2) the faculty of speech, skill and practice in speaking
1c3) a kind or style of speaking
1c4) a continuous speaking discourse-instruction
1d) doctrine, teaching
1e) anything reported in speech; a narration, narrative
1f) matter under discussion, thing spoken of, affair, a matter in dispute, case, suit at law
1g) the thing spoken of or talked about; event, deed
2) its use as respect to the MIND alone
2a) reason, the mental faculty of thinking, meditating, reasoning, calculating
2b) account, i.e. regard, consideration
2c) account, i.e. reckoning, score
2d) account, i.e. answer or explanation in reference to judgment
2e) relation, i.e. with whom as judge we stand in relation
2e1) reason would
2f) reason, cause, ground

3) In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.
++++
This term was familiar to the Jews and in their writings long before a Greek philosopher named Heraclitus used the term Logos around 600 B.C. to designate the divine reason or plan which coordinates a changing universe. This word was well suited to John's purpose in John 1. See Gill on "Joh 1:1".
 

316 yeov theos theh'-os  (Where is "Ho" ?)
of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; TDNT-3:65,322; n m

AV-God 1320, god 13, godly 3, God-ward + 4214 2, misc 5; 1343

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
2a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
2b) Christ, the second person of the trinity
2c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God's representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges

Let me first state that Strong's Exhaustive concordance has been the prime source of defining the Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek texts for scholars for much longer than any other contemporary source. Right behind that would be Young's Analytical Concordance. Neither of these profound works include the "Ho" the NWT translators, are citing. Let me also categorically state that the history of the Millerites, Russelites etc. have consistently proved themselves to be false prophets and unable to show any proficiency in any Biblical language.

My advice then, to anyone, would be to be very very careful in making choices concerning their spiritual care or care giver(s).   See what Paul advised.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.



John 10:34-36 - "The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.  (Interesting that the Jews did not agree with the concept of the trinity!) Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods [theos]? If he called them gods [theos], unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am [the] SON OF God?"
(Note that Jesus here called himself the SON OF rather than saying he was the Father himself.)

Okay lets break everything down and keep it steady, including your comments. First of all, you have cited verse 33 as verse 34. You can see that below, as I have not included verse 33, but rather verse 34 - 36 to match your post. Is this trickery on your part? Or is it more likely confusion?

(Interesting that the Jews did not agree with the concept of the trinity!)
Now here is a sad comment, since in no way does the Trinity even enter into the cited passages or what they are saying. The passages are dealing only with Jesus allegedly committing blasphemy!

Verse 34 Reads  -- Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods [theos]?

Now just a moment ago you cited the word theos as ( "a god - Ho Theos) which is singular, but now it has miraculously become plural? I do believe that something in your (or your teachers) exegesis has again been proven to be amiss.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Above is the Old Testament passage being referred to.

Do you see how the passage referred to explains the word gods in two ways? First gods is spelled with a small "g" as is always the case when someone other than God Almighty is mentioned. Secondly, those gods are cited as being children of the most high. There is a lot more to this, but again, we are supposed to be discussing the validity of the "trinity" aren't we?



Acts 7:40 - "Make us gods [theos] that shall go before us: for as for this Moses, who led us forth out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him."

Here we have refs. To Exodus 32:1 and 23. The accurate definitions have already been shown So what do we have? Disgruntled people who sought after idols (icons) which showed a lapse back into pagan influences and practices.



Acts 7:43 - "And ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, And the star of the god [theos] Rephan, The figures which ye made to worship them..."

Once again we have "god" with a small "G" and a name Rephan showing someone or something other than the true God. (Exodus 3:7)



Acts 12:22 - "And the people shouted, saying [of Paul], The voice of a god [theos], and not of a man."

Perhaps this is why someone in the Watchtower got the idea, (out of context again) that they could somehow, make Jesus a separate (perhaps competitive) God, and really "squash this trinity idea." But lets us also explore a bit more here.

21 And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them.
22 And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man.

23 And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

So what do we learn by reading more than one passage? In simplicity, that a crowd of people were calling Herod a god. Nothing at all to do with the Trinity or the deity of Jesus.!



1 OCR. 8:5 - "For though there be that are called gods [these], whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods [these] many, and lords many, to us there is ONE GOD..."

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And here is yet another illustration of how the scriptures can be manipulated, to sound right at first, and yet say something entirely different than what the original texts offered. Why? Well, in this case the deity of Jesus is again set aside, so that he becomes just another god. This is a very dangerous game and those responsible, will indeed have their moment of truth.

Matthew 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!



2 OCR. 4:4 - "in whom the god [these] of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God...
(again, like Adam was made in the "image" of God, that did not make him God Himself!).

Look at the use of these here. Are they trying to unite Jesus and Lucifer (the devil) as having an kinship of jealousy? No not at all. This is simply a poor and obvious attempt to lessen the proper use of the word these so that there can be further claims against the deity of Jesus. Clearly this commentary has had a dual purpose. That of discrediting Jesus, along with attempting to denounce the truth of God being triune in nature. Note the personal comment at the end. Does this sound like a true searcher of truth?  Now just as a point of interest---

"in whom the god [these]  Should this read "in whom the a god"  or perhaps "in whom a god"?



Philippians 3:19 - "whose end is perdition, whose god [these] is the belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things."

And in ending this study, I must ask yet again, what does this have to do with the Trinity? The verse clearly depicts worldly people who deny the power, person hoods, and authority structure of God. Perhaps, instead of being so intent on the study of a theology of falsehood and deceit, of arrogance and defiance, it would be better to follow the advice of the scripture below.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

For then, one can also discover the marvelous truth of a humble earthly teacher named Jesus, who promised to send a counselor (teacher, comforter), the Holy Spirit to help us to find the truth of God.  That is to say, the family - YHWH Father, Yeshua,  the Son And Rauch Paracletos, the Holy Spirit  Spirit , who is God.  And most importantly :

Philippians 4:7  And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:15  And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.



 
Copyright © 1999 - 2003 Karl E. Uhlig